Premium Conversations | On China, we told you so: Tibet’s leader Penpa Tse

Sitting in The Office of Tibet in Washington, amid a flurry of meetings, Tsering, who has also served as Speaker of the Tibetan Parliament in exile, spoke to Hindustan Times about the state of the Tibetan struggle, Chinese actions in Tibet, his expectations from the international community as well as India and Nepal, and his engagements in the US. Excerpts:

As Sikiyong, this is your first visit to Washington. You had a range of meetings. Where is the Tibetan movement at the moment, and what is your sense of the American position?

During my first visit as Sikyong to DC, there has been a high level of interest. And, definitely, we feel so vindicated not just with the West, but with others. We have been telling the world about China’s policies and programmes, how they think, how they repress people, how they have destroyed not just Tibet but many other nationalities in China. We have been speaking about this for the last 50-60 years and not many have been very considerate about our opinion. Now everybody seems to realise that China is the real challenge as of now and also into the future. So there is a greater sense of urgency and also interest in understanding and supporting, in restrategising on Tibet – I think it is not just when we meet with the officials and Congress people, we get this sense. I think it’s not just with Tibet or the Tibetans, I’m sure it is the same with Uighurs or Hong Kongers. And during this visit also, I got the opportunity to meet some Hong Kong leaders and Uighur leaders. So overall, yes, there is a lot of interest and I go with a sense of satisfaction that we can look forward to more cooperation into the future.

Like His Holiness (Dalai Lama), you stand for the middle way approach, which affirms the importance of engaging with China and seeking autonomy. Is there any dialogue that’s going on with China, maybe through back channels? Have you seen any willingness from Beijing side to engage with you?

Backs channels – one or two are there, but nothing concrete. So I don’t even respond back through these channels right now. And if you look at the leadership’s thinking and their actions in Hong Kong or with Uighurs or in Tibet, it doesn’t look very likely that there could be openings. But besides that, on our part, I think it’s really important to let the Chinese government know that the policies and programmes that they are implementing inside Tibet are aimed at the eradication of the identity of the Tibetan people, which includes the very rich and unique cultural heritage that has the potential to spread more peace and harmony in the world. And that is threatened. It’s important to make them know that what they are doing is wrong.

But even recently, while reacting to our meeting with the Czech foreign minister, they are still reiterating the same rhetoric – that His Holiness is a separatist. The whole international community know that His Holiness has been seeking accommodation with China, not seeking separatism from China, but they keep repeating that. So that’s why I sometimes get this feeling – and I have vocally mentioned it – as to who really wants to separate Tibet from China, whether it is His Holiness the Dalai Lama or the Tibetan people or the Chinese government themselves. Because in other countries, if somebody wants to say, okay, we are willing to live within the constitution, but we want this kind of autonomy to preserve our identity, then the central government should be happy to take it up. Here we come up with very pragmatic approaches, but China is pushing us away.

China is very insecure

Do you think it is pushing you away because it is confident now of its grip over Tibet? The last time we saw large scale protests inside Tibet was in 2008. There have been self-immolations since then. But because of the demographic aggression and the development money that they have spent, it seems like China thinks it has Tibet under its grip. Would that be a correct assessment?

They live under that illusion, but at the same time, I don’t think they are confident at all. I think they are very very insecure. That is why they are the only country which spends more money on internal security than external security. Why? Because there is a huge lack of trust between the rulers and the ruled. I don’t see any confidence from the Chinese. I see more insecurity.

Another part of their understanding – that’s what we tried to stress during our visits here also – is they force or command other countries to say Tibet is part of PRC (People’s Republic of China) since time immemorial; earlier, it was from 8th century, 13th century, 18th century. And now those narratives are also gone and it’s back to since time immemorial. And when countries keep saying Tibet is part of PRC, following one China policy – one China policy is mainly meant for Taiwan – then, for one, you are going against international law because the 17-point agreement was forced upon Tibetans after the invasion of Tibet in 1950. So that cannot be fair agreement, it is not as per the norms of international law. Two, when nations listen to what China commands them, then the message that goes to China is it is okay, China can do whatever it wants in Tibet and we will not question you. That gives them this illusion.

But who is the international community to give legitimacy to China? And why is China asking this question all the time, asking nations to see Tibet as part of PRC? Because they themselves know that they don’t have the legitimacy. If they have the legitimacy, why should they approach the international community for legitimacy? Unfortunately, we have remained isolated from the international community for so many centuries, and because of that, it’s always the other nations who decided for us, whether it was British India or UK or China. Who are they to decide for us?

The only way China can gain legitimacy over Tibet is from His Holiness the Dalai Lama or the Tibetan people, not the international community. And that’s what we try to impress. And this is the only leverage we have. On the one hand, they say Tibet is part of PRC. On the other hand, they support dialogue. Why does China need to come on the dialogue table when you are not questioning what is happening inside Tibet?

Fully trust India

You mentioned His Holiness. The US has a clear policy because of a recent act that they passed in the Congress on the question of reincarnation. India, which is a big home for the Tibetan community, does not have such a clear policy. What are your expectations from India on the reincarnation question?

I am not worried about that. I trust the Indian government fully, and we have always maintained a very transparent relationship with the Indian government. You know how India functions, even at this stage, and internationally what’s happening. So, I have full faith in the government that when it’s the right time, the Indian government will take its right position. I am sure everybody realises what has gone through history and both the Indian government and the people have a lot of sympathy for the Tibetan people. As somebody who was born in India, I have always been saying, I don’t feel any different from Indians because our language came from India. Our religion came from India and spirituality is what defines you and your way of life. So we are no different. And we have always considered ourselves as an extension of, a repository of, one part of ancient Indian wisdom. And we are very proud of that. So I think every Indian knows about that.

Now with the unprovoked aggression on the border – earlier in Doklam, now in Galwan – I think the Indian government’s position has become much stronger, and that we witnessed during Wang Yi’s visit sometime back. Now there is no traction unless China takes some positive steps towards creating better relations. We have always appreciated good relations between India and China, the two most populous nations in the world. We are stuck in between. And, traditionally, we have played the role of a buffer and if Tibet gains autonomy, there will be a lot more peace and stability in the region. That’s what we have always been saying. But some people believe that I’m quite a loudmouth when I talk geostrategy, some people say who are Tibetans to decide? But we are in the middle of central Asia. And if there are opportunities, why can’t we do it?

It took a long time for you to form the government. There were divisions on regional lines. You still not being able to form your cabinet fully. Are the divisions within the Tibetan community causing weaknesses in the movement?

Any division in any community weakens the movement. But that does not affect the functioning of my administration. Even when I was alone for four months, not one single person can complain about my work in the administration because it’s not just me. Cabinet is just seven people plus the Sikyong, but you have the whole administration. And we have a very well structured administration. And in the last eight-nine months, I took a lot more time to rationalise the administration. So that is not a major problem. Even if I were alone today, that should not be a problem. But of course, I have three capable ladies now in the cabinet and they are taking care of their departments and I am doing my bit, and there is no scope for failure or lapses in the functioning of the administration.

At the top level, there are still some remnants of what has happened and I am making the effort to take it in the right direction, including with the parliament and with the public. If you are on social media, everywhere I go, you can see there are huge receptions from public. And that’s what encourages us. As long as we have trust of the people we can carry on, but don’t worry. This will be handled in a phased manner because you’re dealing with minds, not materials.

Young Tibetans should read history

The other division that people talk about is generational, where, His Holiness’s middle way approach is seen as something that the younger Tibetans don’t really accept. They say that we have tried this for so long and nothing has happened. And therefore, they advocate a more radical approach. What would you say to Tibetans who believe that you are too moderate?

I think His Holiness is very liberal. Some people believe that we are very conservative. We are open to ideas. His Holiness is open to ideas. If he was conservative, he could have just stuck to independence and then let us see where Tibet would be today. It’s because of His Holiness’s liberalism and pragmatism, based on the reality of the situation. That’s why sometimes I keep telling the younger generation that you think that I am conservative, but sometimes I get this feeling that you are more conservative than us. So of course, people have to understand the reality of the situation, the historical background of our conditions. So the younger generation, I tell them to read history first, understand the situation, understand the reality of the situation inside Tibet. Do we have the luxury? Can we afford such a stand? We have to go with the world the first and the foremost important thing is to preserve and protect the identity of the Tibetan people inside Tibet. If that is not there, then what will independence make of us…make a difference?

Is there large-scale migration that’s happening of young Tibetans from India to the West?

Not just youth, even elders are going, maybe the elders are going so that the youth don’t have to pay for nurses, I am sure it’s shared with many communities. Yes. We are witnessing this huge social and demographic change. Roughly about 45% of the exile community now have moved out of India, Nepal and Bhutan.

What does that translate into numbers? How many people are outside now?

That is a difficult question. In a few months, we are going to undertake a demographic survey. So by that time, we should have more exact numbers, but today, we estimate the number of the exiled community to be about 130,000. So out of that, in United States alone, it could be anything between 20-25,000; Tibetans in Canada are about 10,000; in the whole of Europe, there are about 30,000 Tibetans. And in Australia, they are close to 3000. And then there also a lot of scattered communities. And the rest are in India, Nepal and Bhutan.

Pity the Nepal government

What do you want to say to the Nepal government, given that Tibetans who live there say they have not been able to exercise their rights? Nepal used to be a route used by many Tibetans, but there are reports of a crackdown on the border because of Chinese pressure in the past decade.

Sometimes I feel pity for the Nepal government. Even if they are independent, they are in a worse situation than us and then they treat our people because of Chinese pressure in the manner that they are treating us now. So that’s very unfortunate. I think Nepal, as an independent country, should be stronger in their approach towards China. Whatever India is trying to do with Nepal is basically to help Nepal because Nepal has historically been dependent on India for all kinds of resources that are not available in Nepal. So they need to be more friendly. And I think there should be better understanding from the Nepalese government and people about India’s intention. India is not trying to annex Nepal. India is not trying to change Nepal, but they are more concerned about the security issues from China.

Except in the last 50-60 years, Nepal has been our neighbour, not China’s neighbor. Bhutan has been our neighbour, not China’s neighbour. So despite all this historical relationship that we had, the compulsions in terms of the immediate political pressure from China is causing a lot of friction between Nepalese and the Tibetans. I want to reach out to the Nepalese government to seek better understanding between Nepalese and Tibetans. But right now, my name is in the immigration list of people who cannot enter Nepal. Someone who had my name was kicked out from there.

So let’s see how things shape up. We remain positive. We can’t be hopeless. Things will change. As Buddhists, we believe in impermanence. Here in the West, they say change is the only constant. So things would have to change, and I am sure better relations would happen in the future.

The Taiwan question

Returning to your visit here, you met several senior officials. Global politics is going through a churn. There is a lot of anger here against what Russia has done in Ukraine. There are people who see the Russia-China relationship, and fear that this may embolden China to act aggressively in Taiwan, in other places. What message did you get from officials here?

Everybody is concerned about what China might do to Taiwan. So that’s why you see a flurry of visitors to Taiwan to show their support before anything happens with Taiwan, because Ukraine could not be avoided. But I think if Xi Jinping and the Communist Party wants to fall faster, then they should invade Taiwan. If they want to remain for some time, they should leave Taiwan alone. Because now it’s a different world – they are not able to support Russia in the manner they would love to because of the fear of sanctions, because of its zero COVID policy and its impact on the economy, and its own trade war with other countries, they are even afraid of secondary sanctions. So there should be pragmatism in the minds of Chinese people because if the Communist Party does not survive, then there is nothing to do with international relations. That’s why I say they are very insecure.

Why do they do this to India where not even anything grows on those mountains? I was in Ladakh, I was in those border areas, visiting every single nomadic community there. Why do something when you don’t gain anything? Why keep these flashpoints burning, whether it’s Tawang or south China sea? Because they see this threat to the survival of the communist party and when that happens, they might do something again, invoke nationalism, and then make sure that communism survives. But Chinese people are not going to remain stupid for that long. I am sure they will wake up to realities and this will be a huge challenge for Xi Jinping.

Freedom to practice religion, protect environment

In case conversations with China happen, what is an acceptable deal to you and the Tibetan people?

We should have all freedom to practice our religion, practice our language, and have an education system that fits with the mindset of the Tibetan people. We should be able to have all freedom to practice our religion, to protect our way of life and most importantly, Tibet’s environment that does not affect only Tibet but the whole region, including China. So those freedoms we should have.

And politically?

Politically China will evolve and we will also evolve according to that. It has to evolve. It cannot remain stagnant.

Do you see His Holiness being able to go back to Tibet?

That’s why I keep saying let us see whether the communist party outlives His Holiness or His Holiness outlives the communist party.